Brent Asks: Be It Proxy or Counts As?
Yesterday, my buddy Goatboy – inventor of the Sadness Doughnut – opened his article by giving a big ol’ finger to anyone who thought Chaos Space Marine Counts-As was dead.
Goatboy just can’t let anything go.
Brent here, heralding in another Fine Terrible Tuesday with an article that discusses Counts-As, proxies, and where it all might go wrong.
I decided to ask the local tournament organizer, the Master Manipulator (every store needs one) for his opinion. Hopefully, this will give you some idea where event judges are coming from. I add this caveat: it’s best to check in advance with the actual organizers.
Let me start off by saying in friendly games, I could care less what everyone does. This is purely my opinion on how I adjudicate in our tournaments. I am all for a well made back story to explain why you are using Sisters of Battle to rep your Dark Angels or something silly like that. That is the great stuff fun that people love doing with this game. Just don’t bring it to my tourneys.
The basis of this conversation really boils down to one question. “Why does it matter?”
I should be able to sit down with anyone at any time and look across the table and have a fairly good idea of what is going on. I should not have to question what my opponent is using for what, or whether or not they may have misunderstood some allies rule or something. When models are being set up across the table, I should have a reasonable confidence I know what they are.
That’s fairly straightforward, yes? Let’s move on – with examples.
When someone asks me if a model is a proxy or ‘counts as,’ I typically respond with the following: does that model have a profile or set of rules that is legal in the current game, and those rules are different from what you plan on using? For the most part if the answer to that question is yes, than it’s a proxy.
Let’s look at an example.
What we have here is a loyalist Space Marine, a Blood Angel, to be exact. Everybody knows what a Blood Angel is and what set of rules to apply to it. Moving on…
What we have here is a Space Goat. Some may be aware that Space Goats painted white are Goat Angels of some sort, but let’s face it: this is a homegrown conversion. A proper conversion is ‘Counts-As,’ meaning it can be used for a number of things. There is nothing wrong with using this model: it isn’t a proxy. Let’s recap.
Using an Ultramarine as a Chaos Space Marine, or an Ork, or an Eldar Guardian isn’t appropriate. An Ultramarine as a Chaos Space Marine is a proxy…
…but a Goat Angel is ‘Counts-As.’
See the difference? Space Goats may use parts from both Loyalist and Chaos Space Marines, but they are neither and thus can be used in a variety of ways. Using straight Chaos Space Marines to rep out a new Codex chapter is all well and good at home, but is it appropriate at a tournament where you may be playing a stranger?
I don’t think so. At the very least, I’m sure we can agree it is a gray area.
So why isn’t it okay to use Chaos Space Marines as Loyalist Space Marines? After all, the Goats are pretty chaotic looking; what’s the difference?
Sort it out like this: does a model have a stat line in the Warhammer 40K universe already? If it does, and you use it for something else, that’s a proxy. Goat Marines exist nowhere except Goatboy’s probably warped mind, yet Khorne Berserkers have a color scheme and set of abilities everyone is already familiar with. Using Berserkers as Vanguard isn’t cool.
But using Chaos Space Marines painted in your own design as Knights of Blood, a Counts-As Blood Angel army, is perfectly cool. We’re all familiar enough with the game to be flexible on a technical proxy like that. It’s a game, after all.
Everyone is going to have an opinion on what’s okay and what isn’t, so again, check with your Tournament Organizers, but to my mind gamers are a forgiving lot. After all, most of us came up with rules for our toys when we were kids; imagination is part and parcel of the hobby. As a last example, Rob over at Spikey Bits has a pretty fantastic Ork Guard. I wouldn’t have a problem playing it and I daresay neither would you; it’s a beautiful labor of love. But what if some dude dropped a ton of unpainted Orks on the table and said, “Okay, this is Guard today, and that Trukk is a Manticore.”
That’s all I’ve got, just a few thoughts to spark conversation and perhaps avoid an uncomfortable last-minute scramble or two. I’m aware some of you may disagree with this perspective; let’s hear where you are coming from.
So that’s it then! Another article in the bag. Feel free to drop a comment or three. As always, thoughts? Comments? Hugs and gropings?
Hold up.
Does any of this seem vaguely familiar to any of you? If you think you’ve seen it before, you probably have. Everything from *** to *** above is word for word from an article published on Bell of Lost Souls before.
The original article was titled Editorial: Is it Proxy or is it ‘Counts As’? I wrote it way back in February of 2011, right after Goatboy posted a Counts-As Word Bearers article that had everyone in a frenzy of Goat-hate.
And that article was a reprint of the original I wrote on Blood of Kittens in July, 2010. (I wouldn’t follow the link, though; the lead in picture TastyTaste added is quite tasteless. You’ve been warned!)
The point I’m trying to make is obvious, but I’ll make it anyway… since my current anonymous, Trollish net-stalker is particularly dense. Everything old is new again! We’ve been talking about these issues for a long time now, and we’ll be discussing them for a long time to come.
Why, you ask?
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| My Counts-As C’tan for my RustyCrons army. |
Because we hobbyists are inventive people! We enjoy kit bashing and creating our own fluff and designing our own Chapter – and there’s nothing wrong with any of that.
The only thing that could go wrong is if the conversion is so extreme your opponent has a hard time sorting out what things are on the table. For example, here’s my Slaanesh-themed Counts-As army; as you go through the pictures, can you pretty much figure out what everything is?
The first picture could be a number of things, but if I told you at the beginning of the game that they were Eldar Warlocks with Enhance, who would each be leading the two squads of Storm Guardians, also pictured above, I doubt you’d have any problem with it.
Problems seem to happen when folks try to abuse the rules a bit too much. If that’s not you, I doubt there is a problem.
Here are the questions I asked in the original BoLS version of the article – to round this all out, I’m going to answer them. Just so you’re clear on my take, for what it’s worth!
Are you tired of Counts-As armies in tournaments or do you love seeing them?
I love seeing them – they’re usually filled with conversions, which are cool.
Has a custom army ever caused you problems in a game because you couldn’t sort out what was what?
The only time I’ve had a problem is when it was more a proxy than a Counts-As. In a tournament a few years back, my opponent had an army that used Grey Knight Terminators as Space Marine Terminators and an Inquisitor as a Special Character. This was before Allies, so you wouldn’t think it would be hard to keep straight, but the Grey Knights made the Inquisitor seem very natural on the board, so I forgot for a moment that I was playing Space Marines.
And charged Cassius with a unit that couldn’t possibly get through his Toughness 6 and Feel No Pain in one round!
I didn’t make an issue of it – it wasn’t worth making an issue of! My opponent was fun to play and we were both out of the running anyway. Plus, I was really tired from a weekend of gaming, so that more likely contributed to my mistake than anything else. I did learn though; if it every comes up in a game that matters, I’ll just put a reminder on notecard in my dice box.
Do you believe people are taking advantage of it, and using a powerful Codex they prefer to play with models they like?
Yup! But frankly, I don’t care. I’ll play my way, you play yours, and let’s meet at, “Good game.”
And is there anything wrong with that?
The only thing I’m worried about is Special Characters. In my mind, the new Space Marines book pretty clearly gives you guidelines for using them. To use Tigurius as an example, like I did a few weeks ago, he’s an Ultramarine. Period. Now, I can see him showing up in an Ultramarines Successor Chapter, but I can’t see him ditching his colors. He’s an Ultramarine!
To my mind, if you want to play him in an detachment of your Counts-As Space Phantoms, naturally you’ll be using the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics… and Tigurius would be sporting his colors, because he wouldn’t be caught dead in yours.
Or you could do that, I suppose…
Ah, well. The comments section is open; feel free to comment away! Also, hit me with your thoughts, comments, and Counts-As hugs and gropings.
